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Post by Nienor on Sept 16, 2004 5:42:33 GMT -5
You cannot possibly think that Tolkien wasn't descriptive. Can you really take the journey of Frodo and Sam and say that he didn't give description? He describes the roads they are on, the feelings they have, even what the air tastes like at points. And then the commonly used Council of Elrond chapter. I understand that Tolkien left enough blanks for you to picture the charactors, but he DOES give a lot of detail. He spent ten years writing a language. Is that not detail? He has extensive histories behind his works. Is that not detail? I understand that we are allowed to picture the charactors as we wish, which was what I did, but he does include a lot of detail.
I'm sorry, that may have sounded like I was attacking you. This is not the case, I love debating and get a little carried away sometimes...
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Post by Lenwë Telrúnya on Sept 16, 2004 12:59:41 GMT -5
well i thought so because its um thin we can all relate too theres sum one we all wnat to be in dat film people have there own charachters on scenes its there view but i thought it made it so believable because of the people that made it and how it was made p.s i wanna go to new zealand
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Eriol
Dwarf
The fate of the many is decided by the few
Posts: 61
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Post by Eriol on Sept 16, 2004 15:00:59 GMT -5
Nienor you do make good points, and I understand you entirely.
The languages and histories were excellent detil, but that isnt really the kind I meant.
I agree also that there were points of incredible detail, but there were points of limited detail. I use limited not in the offensive way, but in an amopunt perfect to Tolkiens cause. He put in what he had to, and that only. Obviously some points took more than others.
But i mean in descriptions of people and characters more than most, Aragorn, Legolas etc, were decribed to their basic features; slender hands, way they walked etc, but not like:
As the stranger walked in Frodo noticed with his deep blue eyes that they man had a loo of majesty to him. He was tall, his clothes were fine, yet old, and durable. He carried the scent of the wilderness with him, and he made no noise as he strode through the inn. Some looked at him, hooked noses and sharp eyes staring from behind hoods. He was strong, yet slender, and at his side was asword, with incredible engravings.....
You get me. Tolkien never did this. It was not his thing. It is left to the mind of the reader.
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Post by Nienor on Sept 29, 2004 5:02:20 GMT -5
I like the way you think, Eriol! I think I understand you a bit more now... My favorite series was always the Redwall books by Brian Jacques, and I still love them, but since I read The Lord of the Rings, I haven't been able to read one all the way through. Many people say they don't like the detail in LotR, but I did, and that's why I get bored reading Redwall now. It moves to fast. There is a great deal of detail in The Lord of the Rings, but you are right! He left a lot to the mind of the reader as well. Good example.
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Post by Lenwë Telrúnya on Sept 29, 2004 11:24:35 GMT -5
i like the way all the lord of the rings fans think
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Post by oceansun on Oct 2, 2004 11:38:20 GMT -5
the fact that is written like a history text. ;D
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Post by Nienna on Oct 3, 2004 14:42:12 GMT -5
yeah the way he writes everything makes it seem real! ;D
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Post by Lenwë Telrúnya on Oct 4, 2004 10:47:08 GMT -5
yer
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Post by RivendellDweller on Oct 8, 2004 16:39:18 GMT -5
The second type is J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis fantasy. Totally believable things happening in our world. Something that has many similarities to what happens in real life. In fact, it's almost historical fiction, because it is so close...just in another place. The things that happen may not be the same, but...well for instance. In The Lord of the Rings, evil is perverted good. Melkor (for those who haven't read The Silmarillion, he is one of the Valar, who are like angels in a sense, who wanted power and thus fell into darkness) started out as one of the most powerful of the Valar. He soon desired the power that Illuvatar ( similar to God) had, and wanted to go his own way, and to make a long story short, ended up evil. Then, really coming to my point, he took elves, which were nearly the embodiment of good, and tormtured and mutilated them, to create orcs, nearly the embodiment of evil. Balrogs were corrupted Maiar(similar to lesser angels) It is also that way in our life. Machines are invented for good purposes, and can be used for evil. Words spoken can be turned against you, when they were originally good. Evil is all good things corrupted to bad purposes. I won't try and put that into better words myself! What you said there is what I believe is the heart of the reason that The Lord Of The Rings is so believable. That, also tied in with the main characters being possible for us to identify with. I think the different emotions and reactions to situations portrayed in the story make it easy for us to relate to them. I also agree with Eriol, in that the lack of detail concerning physical features means our imagination frequently comes into play, making the story more personal.
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Post by vikingmaiden on Oct 15, 2004 11:43:43 GMT -5
i love how all you guys are talking... its amazing how beautifully tolkien wrote...his style is very unique. for me, lotr is believable because of the realness of the characters. like some of you said already, we go through the same things that they did. so many times, when i'm feeling overwhelmed, i like to think of how the characters pulled through their own struggles. all our lives are adventures...if you don't think your life is an adventure now, then maybe reading the lotr another time will open your eyes!!
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Post by firesong on Oct 17, 2004 1:08:42 GMT -5
Tolken didnt just write a story. He created a whole new world with its own history, maps, cultures, languages etc. He didnt make a world for the sake of a story. He made the world and then discovered and developed the story that was part of Middle Earth
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Frodo
Dunadan
''We set out to save the Shire, and it has been saved..but not for me.''
Posts: 148
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Post by Frodo on Oct 19, 2004 13:31:56 GMT -5
I think it was his abilty to suck you into the story, and make you really care about the characters.
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Post by Nienor on Oct 25, 2004 5:14:51 GMT -5
Whoops, I just modified a mistake I made in the original posts... and wow! You all have such great ideas! I have trouble believing that Tolkien's world doesn't exist...my dad feels the same way. Come to think of it, so does my mom, and my brother. I come from a geeky family. It contains all the necessary elements to a good story! Something you can identify with... the point I was making in the beginning was that this type of fantasy isn't unreasonable things happening here, but reasonable things happening elsewhere. Which makes them more believeable, if you know what I mean. Seeing that another place has characteristics of our world...there is so much to these stories.
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Post by Gloredhel on Nov 16, 2004 12:28:21 GMT -5
Right! It isn't allegory, in fact Tolkien clearly said "This is not allegory!!!" but it is comparable with the troubles we encounter every day! In truth, to have a good story, you need to have the elements introduced in The Lord of the Rings. In my mind, there are two kinds of fantasy. The first one is what most people call fantasy. Stories that have few believable elements that take place in this world. For instance, a story with unicorns and magical creatures. The second type is J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis fantasy. Totally believable things happening in another world. Something that has many similarities to what happens in real life. In fact, it's almost historical fiction, because it is so close...just in another place. The things that happen may not be the same, but...well for instance. In The Lord of the Rings, evil is perverted good. Melkor (for those who haven't read The Silmarillion, he is one of the Valar, who are like angels in a sense, who wanted power and thus fell into darkness) started out as one of the most powerful of the Valar. He soon desired the power that Illuvatar ( similar to God) had, and wanted to go his own way, and to make a long story short, ended up evil. Then, really coming to my point, he took elves, which were nearly the embodiment of good, and tormtured and mutilated them, to create orcs, nearly the embodiment of evil. Balrogs were corrupted Maiar(similar to lesser angels) It is also that way in our life. Machines are invented for good purposes, and can be used for evil. Words spoken can be turned against you, when they were originally good. Evil is all good things corrupted to bad purposes. Hmmm........You know a lot, Nienor!! Very good thoughts! I agree with you, pretty much completely, I think!
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Post by Nienor on Nov 17, 2004 4:58:27 GMT -5
Thanks! I really thought about this a lot.
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