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Post by Herenya on Nov 14, 2004 4:57:37 GMT -5
I was wondering how elves got married. In our society, marriage is a ceremony generally linked to religion. But the elves don't (really) have one. Would they just have a ceremony, or would there be a more religious aspect to it?
It says in the Silmarillion that Eol took Aredhel "to wife".
Beren had to ask Thingol before he could marry Luthien, and Aragorn had to ask Elrond. Was this a general custom, ot just because their fathers were influential people in that time, and it was best to stay on their good side?
What do you think? Is the term marriage just used as a figure of speech?
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Post by Nienor on Nov 14, 2004 16:06:43 GMT -5
About asking fathers, it's a thing that has always been present in history, and it may have just made sense to Tolkien to incorporate it. A man asks the father of the woman he would like to marry, he may still marry her without the father's permission, but it is, at least today, a thing of courtesy.
I would assume that because of Tolkien's beliefs, there would be a ceremony. Eol and Aredhel would be an exception, because of the way in which the marriage came about...she wasn't necessarily forced, but she didn't have much choice, either.
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Post by €ruanna on Nov 22, 2004 2:50:17 GMT -5
*bounces up and down* aaarg Im late to this topic but i have the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok I have "The culture of Middle Earth" book ((absaloutly amazing book btw if you can ever find one of the other 299 copies BUY IT)) Here in detail is an extract on Elven Marriages....................may it help you in your quests........
The most important event in the life of an Elven lady is marriage. When a match has been agreed on, it is customary for the brides’ father to place his daughters hand in one of the groom’s. This act may be all that is needed to establish an Elven marriage. Supporting this conclusion is the record of Lúthien’s marriage to Beren. He simply took Lúthien’s hand into his while standing before her father’s throne and his courtiers. Like Napoleon Bonaparte’s coronation, this gesture was impertinent but effective. A celebration with eating, singing and music followed Lúthien’s nuptials.
However they initiate it, Elves take betrothal very seriously, and will not wed in haste. Arwen married her Mannish suitor after and engagement in the Quenta Silmarillion. This caution is understandable, as Elves lasts a long time, and so do their marriages. Galadriel and Celeborn were partners for hundreds of years, as were Elrond and Celebrían, and Finwë and Indris.
Most Elves marry for love, but will still have an eye to maintaining their status, particularly if they are nobles. No Elven princess has ever married less than a lord, Even Lúthien, who slummed it to marry Beren, did not breach this rule, as he was a disappointed king and a lord of men.
It is unusual for an Elven princess or lady to enter into marriage without the imprimatur of her family, and especially that of her father or male guardian. When consent is sought, the prospective bride is usually aware of the suit and has already accepted the proposal. The father and guardian is also responsible for nominating the bride-price. Sometimes, in order to deter or eliminate a would be groom, an exorbitant price is set.
The exemplary case of this was the levy fixed by Thingol for Lúthien’s hand: no less than a silmaril from Morgoth’s crown. Occasionally, an Elf-woman’s father or guardian will consent to a marriage when the suitor has not strictly met the bride-price. Thingol acquiesced to Lúthien’s marriage to Beren, even though Beren did not hand over the silmaril. Thingol was content to know that the task he’d set was carried our, if not exactly to the letter.
It is rare for an Elven lady to be compelled to marry against her wishes. But prospective grooms will occasionally try to force their suit. Celegorm held luthien prisoner in Nargothrond while trying to coerce her father into agreeing to their marriage. In other instances, suitors have used underhanded methods. Eol the dark elf resorted to enchantments to snare Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, Fingolfin’s daughter. Eol’s actions drew a mixed response from Aredhels family,. Her brother Turgon welcomed Eol, but her cousin Curufin declared him a thief and denied him kinship.
Elven marriages do not all last forever. The Noldorin prince Feanor became estranged from his wife Neranel, whom he married in his youth. However they did not undergo a formal divorce, and neither party took another partner. We can treat their parting anomalous – another dreadful preduct of the curse of feanor and his house.
In he history of middle earth there have been three marriages of men and elves. All three unions saw a joining of an elf woman to a man, The couples were Luthien and Beren, Idril Celebrindal and Tuor, and Arwen and Aragon. Many elves consider these couplings as unnatural, and a good number of men share this view. No elf-man has ever considered to take a Mannish wench for a wife.
Should an elven maiden marry a man, she will become estranged from Elven_Kind. She can no longer join the other elves in Valinor, and she becomes subject to mortal decay in the way all Men are. After death, her spirit cannot go to the halls reserved for elves in Mandos. Instead she must journey along the paths set for the spirits of men. But the authors of ‘the red book’ suggest there is one way an elf-woman can regain the privileges of Elf-hood. To do so, se must repudiate the marriage. None of the three Elves who married Men chose to exercise this loophole
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Post by Herenya on Nov 22, 2004 3:09:31 GMT -5
Thanks!!!
Who is the book by, where did you get it, (and I know i'm skeptical) where did they find their information? Is it just based on behaviour observed in Tolkien's writing, or did Tolkien say something more on the subject somewhere else?
Thanks again. It really answered my question. Cool book!
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Post by °ArieN° on Nov 22, 2004 3:46:49 GMT -5
That is all very interesting, and what I like is that Elves married for love, as I have seen and read. And also that they can find love between noble people, because it's all so cliché the rich or noble falling in love with poor or common person.
Both Luthien and Arwen fell in love with kings, not bad...
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Post by Herenya on Nov 24, 2004 4:27:10 GMT -5
One interesting observation I have made about lotr marriages, the women always marry a man "beneath" them. Or perhaps what i mean is that inter-racial marriages, the woman is of a "higher race".
Melian and Thingol, Luthien and Beren, Tuor and Idril, Arwen and Aragorn...
Of course, it isn't the marrying a common person who is beneath you, but a king who is beneath you, which is slightly different.
I wondered if it was partly b/c Tolkien married someone older than him....?
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Post by Ecthelion Lord of the Fountain on Nov 30, 2004 16:20:03 GMT -5
Here's some other stuff to read.
The Elves wedded only once in life and that's for love and of free will. Marriage was the natural course of their lives and they would wed for the most part in their youth and normal soon after there fiftieth year. Very often they would choose one another early in youth, even as children. If they were children ( not reached 50 years ) the betrothal awaited the judgment of the parents of either. If they were of fitting age the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two Houses concerned and if allowed the betrothed gave silver rings one to another.
According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound to stand for one year at least and during this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings would then be buried and never used again for a betrothal.
After at least a year had passed since the betrothal-feast it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding and the feast of the two involved houses. at the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them. For form of this blessing is not known for no mortal man have ever heard it but the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwë by the father and the name of Eru was named too. Then the betrothed gave back the silver rings but in exchange they gave slender rings of gold which was worn upon the index of the right hand.
For the Noldor there was also the custom that the mother of the bride should give the groom a jewel upon a chain or collar and the grooms father should give a gift like that to the bride. This gift could be given before the wedding-feast.
These ceremonies were not necessary to marriage, they were only a gracious mode to recognize the union of the two Houses. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage and after which the bond was complete. It was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar ( If unwed ) to marry without ceremony or witness, save blessings and naming the names, and in times of trouble, in flight or in exile and wanderings, such marriages were often made.
There is no record of any among the Elves that took another`s spouse by force because this is against there nature and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos and it is scarcely possible for the Eldar can read at once in the voice and eyes of another whether they are wed or not. ( Mr.)
I will here give the Law of Ilúvatar concerning marriage because of the two marriages Finwë had, which interrupt with the statement of the top line where its said Elves married only once in life
The Law about marriage as Mandos told it to the councilors of the Eldar : This is the law of Ilúvatar for you, his children, as you know well. The Firstborn shall take one spouse only and have no other in life while Arda endure. But this law takes no account of Death. This doom is now made, by the right of law giving that Ilúvatar committed to Manwë, that if the spirit of a spouse, husband or wife, forsaking the body, shall for any cause pass into the keeping of Mandos, then the living shall be permitted to take another spouse. But this can only be, if the former union be dissolved forever. Therefore the one that is in the keeping of Mandos must there remain until the end of Arda, and shall not awake again or take bodily form. For none among the Quendi shall have two spouses at one time alive and awake. But since it is not to be thought that the living shall, by his or her will alone, confine the spirit of the other to Mandos, this disunion shall come to pass only by the consent of both. And after the giving of the consent ten years of the Valar ( 95,82 Sun-Years ) shall pass before Mandos confirms it. Whitin that time either party may revoke this consent, but when Mandos has confirmed it, and the living spouse has wedded another, it shall be irrevocable until the end of Arda.
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Post by Beriadan Orc-Hewer on Nov 30, 2004 17:11:28 GMT -5
* Even Lúthien, who slummed it to marry Beren, did not breach this rule, as he was a disappointed king and a lord of men. "Slummed it to marry Beren"?! How dare you insult the heir of the House of Beor!!! Where you not a maiden of tender years I would see you upon the the field at dawn on the morrow!! |
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Post by Beriadan Orc-Hewer on Dec 2, 2004 14:35:04 GMT -5
Aren't there more than three marriages between the elves and men? Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen, and if we count Earendil and Elwing it brings it to four.
It's also said one of Imrahil's forebears married an elf-maiden, which make it even more confusing.
My own personal belief is that there were only three (or perhaps four) marriages between the Edain and the High Elves. I don't think Silvan elves, such as Imrahil's ancestress, are taken into account.
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Post by Herenya on Dec 2, 2004 15:28:49 GMT -5
But Earendil and Elwing weren't an Elf and a Man, because they were both half elf/half human. I've read somewhere that there were only three of such marriages (not sure where, either the sil or unfinished tales)
If Imrahil was Numenorean and related, however distantly to Elros, one of his ancestors had married an Elven woman...
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Post by Beriadan Orc-Hewer on Dec 2, 2004 15:30:24 GMT -5
But Earendil and Elwing weren't an Elf and a Man, because they were both half elf/half human. I've read somewhere that there were only three of such marriages (not sure where, either the sil or unfinished tales) If Imrahil was Numenorean and related, however distantly to Elros, one of his ancestors had married an Elven woman... ....It wouldn't count. |
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Post by €ruanna on Dec 9, 2004 11:01:07 GMT -5
I forgot I post in here "Slummed it to marry Beren"?! How dare you insult the heir of the House of Beor!!! Where you not a maiden of tender years I would see you upon the the field at dawn on the morrow!! Its not my opinion, It is the author of the books, if you want to meet someone on the feild at dawn call F. MacDonald Kells....I am Just the messanger of information oh and *poke* you are younger than I am, a maiden of tender years?? Paah...!! ok the blurb on the books reads this about the author; F. Macdonald Kells isa specialist in medievil history and the arts of the book, and has been writing and exploring in Middle earth for over two decades |
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Post by Beriadan Orc-Hewer on Dec 10, 2004 12:17:36 GMT -5
Its not my opinion, It is the author of the books, if you want to meet someone on the feild at dawn call F. MacDonald Kells....I am Just the messanger of information oh and *poke* you are younger than I am, a maiden of tender years?? Paah...!! If you indeed truly state your age in your profile, than I am in fact rather older than you. As for my harsh words, I do truly rue them, they were not fit to say unto a lady, and I duly repent me of my discourtecy, but I was moved by my respect for the After-Comers, and the great sacrifices they have endured in alliance with us against the works of Morgoth, and his servant Sauron.  |
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Post by €ruanna on Dec 10, 2004 12:26:21 GMT -5
*erases early morning stupididty*
*laughs* I really should'nt post at 4am in the morning when my brain isn'nt functioning, In the morning light, I can say I made an Idiots post *laughs and shakes head and self*
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Post by Ecthelion Lord of the Fountain on Dec 10, 2004 16:44:20 GMT -5
*raises eyebrow* your profile states that you are 15......... And I am 18, you are older than me how?? Are you sure your not looking at his post count? |
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