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Post by merry on Mar 17, 2004 7:56:38 GMT -5
i read everything....but now back to the discussin... I know you did!! Anyway has any1 got anything else to talk about? ;D |
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Post by Anwamian on Mar 17, 2004 12:51:54 GMT -5
Right, I think I should state my opinion. I answered that he wasn't a rascist, because that on "his time", it was normal with having the bad guys dark and the good guys white. If he had written it today, I think it should have been different. Erm... If you get my point.
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Post by Legendel on Mar 19, 2004 13:29:03 GMT -5
No.No.No.  Tolkien wrote a series about different races coming together to fight the forces of evil. A devout Catholic, Tolkien wrote with his friend, CS Lewis, who was an atheist. Comparing dwarves to the Jewish was not racist because first of all, they were too subject to evils. In the books, Rohan and Gondor had to resolve their differences to obliterate evil. Tolkien fought in a war to end racism. He didn't try to emphasize it in his wonderful writings. End of story. |
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Post by merry on Mar 22, 2004 11:05:24 GMT -5
Right, I think I should state my opinion. I answered that he wasn't a rascist, because that on "his time", it was normal with having the bad guys dark and the good guys white. If he had written it today, I think it should have been different. Erm... If you get my point. I get yourpoint and i agree with you!! ;D |
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Galadriel
Hobbit
Ai! lauri? lantar lassi s?rinen, y?ni ?n?tim? ve r?mar aldaron!
Posts: 36
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Post by Galadriel on Mar 27, 2004 21:17:38 GMT -5
I really do not believe he was a racist. Here is a post I found at another forum concerning the matter.
When Tolkien’s trilogy The Lord of the Rings was published, people accused it of being discriminating and chauvinistic. Mainly because there were no black people in his trilogy. And also because the female characters were completely dominated by the male race.
Some people saw this as a disgrace and it was a big topic, especially because it was in the mid 50’s and racism was a big problem.
Tolkien was very disappointed, and he had a hard time understanding the accusations.
There is no doubt that when Tolkien grew up, boys had more power and authority than girls. He also joined various “small societies” where skilled males (and only males), would meet and discuss various things. These examples were pointed out to be so called “evidence” in accusations, that Tolkien was discriminating and chauvinistic.
In my humble opinion: We know that Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings as a mythology, that was supposed to have taken place in England, 7000 years ago. If you think about how dominating the male race has been all through history, why would it be any different 7000 years ago? I mean, it was not until the mid 1900-century, that women were allowed to vote. Imagine how it would have been, thousands of years ago...
Black people in Tolkien’s books. Think of it, there were no black people in England 7000 years ago. The only people you could think of, as black people in Tolkien’s books are the “dark skinned” men from the south. So wasn’t Tolkien just trying to be realistic?
I for one don’t think he was a racist. One of the messages with Tolkien’s books is in fact, understanding and tolerance shown in the two characters Legolas and Gimli.
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Post by Kitoky on Mar 28, 2004 13:52:54 GMT -5
I doubt he was racist he depicted his story as a history of Europe....how many blacks are there in Europe back then?
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Post by merry on Mar 31, 2004 6:51:52 GMT -5
I doubt he was racist he depicted his story as a history of Europe....how many blacks are there in Europe back then? Loads but mainly all slaves!!  |
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Post by Kitoky on Mar 31, 2004 19:49:10 GMT -5
Loads but mainly all slaves!! Europe didn't have slaves til like...the 1200's. |
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Post by merry on Apr 1, 2004 9:04:46 GMT -5
Europe didn't have slaves til like...the 1200's. I know ;D |
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Post by Herenya on Nov 5, 2004 4:42:06 GMT -5
i know it is slightly off-topic, but CS Lewis, wasn't an atheist. He did turn away from Christianity as a teenager, but Tolkien "re-converted" him again, but not, as he had hoped to catholic-ism. CS Lewis returned to his childhood faith of "protestant-ism."
I don't think Tolkien was racist, and i never thought of him as being one. Maybe not all of his comments would be "polictically correct" in today's times, but the same goes for many authors of that era. What is acceptable has dramatically changed. So Tolkien may have just been a "product of his times."
But don't Legolas and Gimli go a long way to prove otherwise?
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Post by Lady Orohisiel Rainyaviel on Nov 5, 2004 5:59:52 GMT -5
Hmmmm...I don't really know what to say here, you have all made good points. Personally, I don't think he was racist, at least i'd like to believe he wasn't. I hate racism and don't think my hero would be.
Middle-earth was Europe, Asia and Africa (it says that in my 'A Guide to Tolkien') and the bad guys had to come from somewhere, and he wouldn't make his people bad guys. Has anyone notcied that in American action movies that baddies are hardly ever American? That just adds to my argument. People don't make their own people, country etc bad.
Another pont why i don't think he was racist is something Faramir says in TT when he finds Frodo and Sam in Ithilien and an Easterling soldier is lying dead nearby. Faramir says things like "you wonder if he was really evil or what lies made him do this...and would he have rather stayed at home." They're not the exact words but something along those lines. That makes me think that alot of the Easterlings and Haradrim weren't all evil but they were forced to fight for Sauron, maybe their families lives were threatened or something. But that's just me.
~~Lady Orohisiel Rainyaviel~~
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Post by vikingmaiden on Nov 5, 2004 9:41:15 GMT -5
i have no idea if tolkien was racist or not....most of what other people have said convince me that he was not, so i'll assume he wasn't. his intent of writing the lord of the rings was not to make any statement of racism/chauvanism etc...he called it his "catholic work"...which means he wrote it to make spiritual points. in the christian worldview, people are fallen (ie not inherently good), and tolkien depicts that well (remember that the race of men desired power above all else?). however, just because tolkien believed that men were inherently bad, doesn't mean they were uncapable of doing good with the help of spiritual guidance. just look how aragorn turned things to the right even though his ancestors made wrong choices. there are a lot of evidences of tolkien's christianity in his book that far outweigh the evidences of racism etc. the references he made to easterlings, etc etc is just to help the story along...i don't think he actually thought that those kinds of people were evil in real life. i think he wanted to include a different race of people to show how broad of a world middle earth was. people who say tolkien was racist are reading way too much into the text and are coming to conclusions that don't really matter in the end...just my opinion.
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Post by Lady Orohisiel Rainyaviel on Nov 5, 2004 10:32:02 GMT -5
I totally agree vikingmaiden. I'm pretty sure in my mind that he wasn't a racist. After all, he was a very religious person and therefore his intentions towards others would be good. I know there are some christians, catholics, protestants etc (only in the minority though) who have problems with other cultures and religions (i see this because on TV there was a priest who hated Jews and Muslims because he said 'they were trying to wipe out christianity' which i think is ridiculous but that is beside the point) but i believe that Tolkien was not one of them. From what I've seen and heard of him he seems a kind person who loves the natural world and has respect for all things good. That is what i think anyway  |
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Post by vikingmaiden on Nov 5, 2004 12:45:25 GMT -5
^ very true. i'm very sad at some of today's christians who are very hateful towards other people just because they're different. a true christian is someone, like tolkien, who respects others' views, even if he doesn't agree. it's about loving others...that's what i think.  |
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Post by Eruannatari on Nov 7, 2004 15:39:37 GMT -5
No, he ws not racist. The white good/black bad thing is just, as Arwen said, a thing of mythology.
He's also been called sexist, just because he wrote about a time when woman were not very important! But he had Eowyn be all courageous like, so that little theory doesn't make a shred of sense. Gawl.
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