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Post by Elvawen on May 29, 2005 9:55:55 GMT -5
I have that book too, Morrigan! dreamingfifi--No one asked you to come correct the languages, and they don't have to be 100% accurate. They're for fun. It DOESN'T MATTER.
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Post by Evenstar on May 29, 2005 13:28:58 GMT -5
Dreamingfifi, for one, you have no right to accuse Arwen of 'copying and pasting'. You have no proof whatsoever of any plagiarism being done. (Except the fact that we're all using the Elvish phrases from Tolkien's books.)
You would love to teach her Elvish? Who's to say you're Elvish is even correct? The only person I would ever trust with extremely accurate Elvish would be J.R.R Tolkien himself. Furthermore, you can't even begin to come close with being 'extremely' accurate with Elvish, because it's a made-up language that Tolkien didn't even finish. Also, as Elvawen said, we didn't ask you to come here and correct the Elvish. Arwen has said that the names aren't 100% accurate and that they're just for fun. And if you have such an issue with it that you had to 'remove recommendations' from your website to this one, then that's your problem. So it might be best for you to either move on to a different forum/website, or drop the discussion. Because everyone knows that the Elvish isn't 100% accurate and you seem to be the only person asking for it to be changed. If you still believe that the Elvish is so incredibly wrong that it should be removed from the entire site, then as I said, that's your problem.
Arwen has a life, and it does not solely revolve around her website. (Which it shouldn't.) She has more then just one e-mail in her inbox to read and there are over a thousand threads on this forum, meaning she cannot attend to each of them.
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Morrigan
Dwarf
Gardener / Patron of the Opera House
Posts: 95
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Post by Morrigan on May 30, 2005 15:20:51 GMT -5
I have that book too, Morrigan! dreamingfifi--No one asked you to come correct the languages, and they don't have to be 100% accurate. They're for fun. It DOESN'T MATTER. Isn't it a good book? i love how you can see connections with the character's name. For example: Dernhelm - Helm of secrecy The name Eowyn used as she 'secretly' went into battle.
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Post by Elvawen on May 30, 2005 15:22:44 GMT -5
Yeah! I love that too! Like Eowyn--warhorse lover, or something like that, lol! I love reading it just to see what the character's names mean.
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Post by Tamuril on May 31, 2005 7:22:21 GMT -5
it is not your place to point out anything - that is professor tolkiens place and since he's not here anymore it doesn't matter - only tolkien could speak the real thing - cause he wrote it so stop trying to act like ur better than everyone who speak some sort of elvish here cause ur not
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Post by dreamingfifi on Jun 1, 2005 2:53:20 GMT -5
Just because you love your webmis doesn't mean that she can't make mistakes. (dreamingfifi ducks the blows as the "cognitive dissonance" warning light comes on)
Let me start anew. While the dear, exalted, and invisible webmisteress worked hard to make a good Elvish section for her website, it has a few gaping holes with in it. There is still a lot of work left to be done.
Her first error was not to thoroughly learn Elvish before attempting it, therefore putting her trust in secondary sources (thrice removed in some cases). Therefore, she couldn't tell dirty dishes from dessert. There are many inconsistencies in the phrase book because she had to copy the phrases from other sources. I've already listed many of them in the thread about the phrasebook, so I won't bore you to death by listing them here. The most obvious copying comes from here: (http://www.geocities.com/white_wolf_72002/) It is the most obvious copying because the phrases from this source have radically different grammar and poorly researched etymology from the rest of the sources.
Her second mistake was to come up with conclusions without researching them enough... this is regarding the name lists. The conclusion that I've come up with from the "feminine name ending for boys" and the "made up name ending for boys" problem stems from seeing the words in the text and not studying the use of them enough. For instance: -ian is an English grammatical suffix used to make an adjective. It was used from time to time in the books when they (J. R. R. Tolkien and C. Tolkien) were too lazy to make the Elvish word into an adjective. It is not a name ending in Elvish! (The same thing happened with the -ic ending as well) -ien is often used on place names, the earth being feminine. The only possible exception is Lórien. Lórien the Ainu took the name of the place he dwelt, feminine name and all, and it wouldn't shame him in anyway because he's a divine power, showing off where he lives. Are you bored yet? Terribly sorry.
My point is that the Elvish on this website needs a lot of work. Yay, let the translations be fun, but this is a Tolkien website; therefore it shouldn't disregard his work. You can have fun and have it be in canon. It's possible; I'm living proof of that.
If it isn't meant to be serious, then maybe a nice big warning in block letters saying, "THIS ISN'T TOLKIEN'S ELVISH! WE'RE JUST MESSING AROUND HERE!" would come in handy.
On a side note: DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON R. S. NOEL'S BOOK! It was published before the majority of Tolkien's work on his languages was published; therefore it contains no more of the information than the Silmarillion and the LotR Books. You want to have fun with Elvish? Buy The Lost Road and Other Writings (written by J. R. R. Tolkien and compiled by his son). It contains the Etymologies - where most of the knowledge that Tolkien-linguists have comes from. Garo 'lass! (Enjoy!)
P.S. No one asked me to come here, but I came anyways because I saw a need. Goodness gracious, don't you want someone to tell you that your underwear is showing instead of letting it be shown to the rest of the world? Sure, kill the messenger, but let the message get through!
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Post by dreamingfifi on Jun 1, 2005 18:39:00 GMT -5
Pst- mods, why are you guys deleting my posts? My thread discussing the problems with the name lists disappeared as well as my other posts about it. Is there a rule here saying "Never critize the webmistress" that I missed?
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 2, 2005 5:26:56 GMT -5
Her first error was not to thoroughly learn Elvish before attempting it, therefore putting her trust in secondary sources (thrice removed in some cases). So you want her to spend hours searching, reading..etc about elvish and learn it properly?.. For what? It's all for fun.. You? oh yeah.. that's enough proof.. Like we've said billions of times.. It DOES say Elvish isn't 100% accurate .. so it's so obvious that it's for fun!
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Post by Tamuril on Jun 2, 2005 10:43:00 GMT -5
jasmine is so right - and i never said i love the webmistress - yes i respect her but i don't love her so there is no way that can cloud my judgement - i think ur being stuck up and even the elvish U learnt will never be perfect - and i'm glad there deleting all ur threads cause ur so insulting!!!
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Post by Belowen on Jun 2, 2005 17:07:48 GMT -5
All right, everyone, let's calm down. Criticism is accepted, but there is a fine line between that line and bashing. Be careful.
Belowen Wicked Witch of the West
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Post by Ellethwen, Maiden of the Stars on Jun 2, 2005 22:35:14 GMT -5
i agree with Belowen- it's just a few problems. dreamingfifi, elvish is not a standered language for most people-if they make a few mistakes, i dosen't matter. so don't get so worried about it, nothing bad is going to happen because someone said the wrong word the wrong way. Pst- mods, why are you guys deleting my posts? My thread discussing the problems with the name lists disappeared as well as my other posts about it. Is there a rule here saying "Never critize the webmistress" that I missed? The reason your name thread disappeared, dreamingfifi, is basically because that must have seemed a little stupid. there IS a note on the name lists page that says she found the translations herself, and translated some to be a bit more "Elvish-sounding". im not being mean or anything, but try reading the notes she posts on those pages once in a while. it really explains a lot.
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Post by Arwen the webmaster on Jun 3, 2005 19:10:29 GMT -5
I suppose it's time I replied, as things are getting a little out of hand... dreamingfifi, I appreciate that you want to see Tolkien's languages properly represented, but what I don't see is why your attitude is necessary, nor would your tone make me particularly eager to follow your suggestions even if I were looking for help with the Elvish section. I've read your statement that you don't like to give criticism "smothered in compliments." I don't like this either, but there's a difference between being politely critical and downright rude, even if neither is filled with compliments. I realize that you believe you know a lot more Elvish than anyone else here, but that's no reason to be impolite, nor is it a reason to insist on continuing to give criticism when you've already been told by quite a few members and several moderators that you're out of line. To compare it to something in my own experience, I'm quite a grammar and spelling nut, and the internet is riddled with errors. Does that mean, because I probably understand more grammatical rules than a lot of people, I should run around correctly grammar (unasked) because I feel that it's my place to make everyone's grammar as accurate as possible? Do I tell people that their grammar is totally corrupted, cursed, and inaccurate, and that I'd love to teach them correct grammar? Of course not. It's rude and inappropriate. Even if I were asked to edit a passage for grammatical errors, I would do my best to give constructive criticism. No, I did not translate anything besides the names myself. I looked for what I believed to be the most reliable phrases. Some of the phrases that you've complained about were passed by David Salo himself; you can read some of his responses to criticism and my interview with him at www.musefanpage.com/NewFiles/salo_answers.html . I am sorry if some of the other phrases aren't completely correct. I try my best to find sources besides Grelvish, but since I do have a life outside of cyberspace, I do not have the time to completely validate each and every phrase. As to the names, yes, I did translate those myself. No, no one--least of all me--is pretending they are completely accurate. I'm trying to give people names somewhere between absurd random generator names and completely accurate but bizarre-sounding names. I do know the difference between Sindarin and Quenya, but since the Gondorians had no problem mixing elements of both languages to create names for their children, I didn't see why it would be a major issue for me to do the same. Please remember that not even Tolkien would know exactly what every name he created meant, and he always made sure the name fit the character. He explicitly stated in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that he didn't know what Aragorn meant. He said that although the ar- meant royal, he wasn't sure what the -orn meant (just that it certainly didn't mean 'tree')--and he had invented the language, of course. I also can't say I appreciate your lack of respect for other people's time. After just a few days of no response from me, you complained about not getting an answer, but instead of making sure I had received your message by ASKING me, you decided to proclaim it to the whole forum, which does nothing to help your situation. If I decide to improve my Elvish, I'll happily undertake the responsibility MYSELF. I'm locking this thread--it serves no purpose to remain open--and I ask that you not post or PM any further messages on the subject (if you do, they will be immediately deleted). I understand you have your own Elvish site, and I think it would be better for you to focus on yours instead of mine if you want people to learn what you consider valid Elvish. Thanks, ~Arwen
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