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Post by dreamingfifi on Apr 4, 2005 1:11:07 GMT -5
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Post by Herenya on Apr 22, 2005 23:54:32 GMT -5
I don't think it is our place to negatively criticise something like the names. It does say that:
so I think that gives you an idea of the purpose of the name translations. I think you'd be better off taking a more positive approach - constructive criticism does tend to go down better.
Since Tolkien didn't leave complete dictionaries and grammar books behind him, there are some aspects of Elvish where I think it is difficult to be totally correct. Also, how one interrepts things is different - in all languages words can have more than one meaning, that is implied by context. Not everything in every language translates literally - so I'm presuming that the same thing applies to Elvish. I don't know much about Elvish, and I don't pretend to. Is the difference here one based on the purpose of the Elvish?
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Post by dreamingfifi on Apr 23, 2005 1:15:36 GMT -5
Did I misunderstand this?
I know a lot about Elvish. I've been studying it for years. It is my place to point out errors when I see them, especially if so many fans are using this website for "trustworthy" Elvish. An effort has been made here to give people good Elvish; why resist a chance to make it even better?
The problem comes in when the Elvish is destroyed in the process of "making it prettier". That kind of thing makes the Elvish here no better than Grelvish from the Tel'Mithrim. Why call it Tolkien's language if you're making it up? (Seriously, words are made up from thin air in many places while Tolkien made words that have the needed meanings.)
Personly, I think it's cruel to give a boy a name ending with -ien when -ien is a feminine name ending. Think of giving a boy the name "Maria". Sure it sounds cool, but it would be hell to live with!
This website it cursed by people who know anything about Elvish; wouldn't you like that to be changed?
The remedy: Remove the Elvish section from the website completely, or fix it.
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Post by Herenya on Apr 23, 2005 2:29:02 GMT -5
No, I wasn't saying you had misunderstood anything. I was just pointing out that your criticisms were rather brutally given (In short, you've given me the impression you think the whole thing's totally incorrect and a complete waste of space). I just think you might get further with your comments if you are more constructive in the way you present them. People are less likely to accept advice if they feel you are attacking their work. They become defensive. If they feel like you are trying to help, they'll be more receptive.  I'm not denying that your comments are not valid. I have nothing against it being improved... but I'm not the webmaster, so I don't have a say in that. |
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Post by Jasmine on Apr 23, 2005 7:25:41 GMT -5
I think the webmistress did great work on the translations.. she took her time to write all this and ..yes of course it's not 100% accurate like she pointed out anyway..  And you've been studying it for years? How do you know that what you've been studying is correct? Like Herenya said.. Tolkien didn't leave any books behind.. so no one knows exactly how elvish should be... But then your free to give suggestions to the Mods and the Webmistress.. and it's up to her to do whatever she likes with her site. |
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Post by dreamingfifi on Apr 23, 2005 23:46:45 GMT -5
I think the webmistress did great work on the translations.. she took her time to write all this and ..yes of course it's not 100% accurate like she pointed out anyway.. Is this a case of "well she tried, so if it's incorrect then we should just ignore it and pretend everything is well"? I'm troubled because many fans can't tell the difference, and they think that the Elvish is 100% correct. She has an obligation to fans to make sure it is as trustworthy as possible. True, Tolkien never finished the Elven languages, but he left behind a lot of information on them, much of which is ignored here. Yes she can, and no one can say that I didn't try to warn her. I don't believe in giving criticism smothered in compliments. |
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Post by Nienor on Apr 24, 2005 12:12:17 GMT -5
Dreamingfifi, if you are a purist to such an extent that you will tolerate only your own translations, then this is probably not the site for you. This site is a haven for Tolkien lovers of all kinds, and we discuss both the movies and books, along with many other things. We are a community, and we support each other. Most of us have close friends here.
As a whole, we on the forum really don't appreciate harsh critisizm. If you are so concered that it is impossible to enjoy the forum unless the main site changes, I suggest you move on to another. I'm sure there are plenty of discussion groups that would welcome your thoughts.
Nienor and the Moderator Team
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Post by dreamingfifi on Apr 24, 2005 22:45:39 GMT -5
When did I say that? I tolerate different translations when they have reasonable hypotheses behind them. The phrase book here is nothing but plagerized phrases from a variety of different scholars' veiws. If she had gone through the trouble of learning the language and making her own theories based on Tolkien's work, I wouldn't be troubled. The name lists are blatantly untrustworthy to the point that even she says so. There's no reason for me to respect the translations here.
If you can't take criticism, can the Webmistress? I'm not trying to reach you; I'm trying to reach her. By the way, I've e-mailed her about the problem. Don't worry, I didn't make fun of her effort; I offered my help.
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Post by Nienor on Apr 25, 2005 21:04:36 GMT -5
Forgive me, I made a mistake. You're correct, you did not say that. But you did just say this, and it seems contradictory:
"I tolerate different translations when they have reasonable hypotheses behind them. The phrase book here is nothing but plagerized phrases from a variety of different scholars' veiws."
You yourself have said that you link to others' sites to help those interested in Elvish along the way. Is it possible to learn without using the resources that we have been provided with? My limited Elvish vocabulary has been bolstered by Ardalambion. It would be impossible for me to avoid using the information I obtained from that site if I were to write my own phrasebook or tutorial.
Since you did email the webmistress, why don't we stop pursuing the issue here?
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Post by dreamingfifi on Apr 26, 2005 3:04:32 GMT -5
Yes it is, as the Tolkien experts who’ve been at it for 40 years have proven. They set the tone for the rest of us really, but we’re free to come to our own ideas. It's a good idea to learn about a wide variety of different translating styles if you use them to draw your own conclusions. But here, she copied and pasted the phrases from several radically different views on Elvish. That is why there are two different translations of "I love" (grammatically and etymologically), and the pronoun+verb order switches constantly between movie-style Elvish and Tolkien-style Elvish (Yes, there is a difference!). That's why the Neo-Quenya translations are so weird (I’m not even sure if they’re Quenya!), and she doesn't have them labeled properly - she just didn't know the difference. I would love to teach her Elvish. She seems to have enough enthusiasm, but she needs to learn the framework first. Then she will find that she doesn’t have to make words out of thin air to make names, and she can have her own translating style that will be respected by the rest of the Tolkien-Language-geeks of the Internet.
Tell me; is the webmistress dead? She hasn’t answered, and it’s been days.
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Post by Herenya on Apr 26, 2005 3:31:46 GMT -5
Tell me; is the webmistress dead? She hasn’t answered, and it’s been days. She says to wait at least two weeks. |
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Post by Jasmine on Apr 26, 2005 7:13:49 GMT -5
She says to wait at least two weeks. Yeah.. coz people are busy.. she's not on the internet 24 hours a day waiting for your message.. |
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Post by dreamingfifi on Apr 26, 2005 17:34:11 GMT -5
Two weeks? Okiedokie. I can wait.
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Post by dreamingfifi on May 23, 2005 18:09:54 GMT -5
Well, it's been quite a bit longer than 2 weeks, am I allowed to feel slightly put-off? (pun intended)
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Morrigan
Dwarf
Gardener / Patron of the Opera House
Posts: 95
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Post by Morrigan on May 24, 2005 22:33:34 GMT -5
Well, it's been quite a bit longer than 2 weeks, am I allowed to feel slightly put-off? (pun intended) You should try running such a big website with such a big forum full of people to please. It can get frustrating. :)She also has to send out newsletters weekly, and it must be difficult to find information to fill up those newsletters. Long ago she posted an update on the home page, and it said that she was trying to catch up, and she had over 500emails to read. Plus, she has a life, too. That comes first and foremost. I think that she did a wonderful job on this website, and if you have a continuing problem with it that hasn;t been fixed, keep contacting her personally, by e-mails or instant messages, even if you have to do it once daily. It's no use stating your problem to the moderators of the forum, when they cannot change the main site. I don't think that this is the case. As Arwen the Webmisstress stated, they are not 100% accurate, so, therefore, the fans who read these names know that they are not accurate. I think that we just see a name and we like it because it sounds nice. We aren't mistaking it for 100% Elvish. I have a book called The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth, which has quite a bit of Elvish in it, but I prefer Arwen's names because they are more to my liking. |
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