What does LOTRs have to do with the Bible?

[Arien Elensar]

I'm going to say this from my heart. I understnad that the bible is paralles with LOTR but comparing it to something like that ruins the magic and fun of it. It makes it some adultish thing. Yes I know that it is compared with the bible and that is how Tolkien got some of his ideas. but it takes out the magic and other worldlyness.

But all of these facts are very true and I agree with most all of them and I understand were it is all coming from but I just wanted to say that. I hope you don't mind.

[Elanor]

Arien said:

aAwesome! What's her name? Are you Sikh?

Her name's Saranjeet and no I'm not a Sikh I'm a Christian

i however must disagree w/ some of you because i believe tolkien's catholic-ness was essential to what the lotr is today...but that's my view, i'm sticking to it! and there really isn't "symbolism" of the bible in lotr...but there are "parallels" in literature, those terms are two similar but different entities...so yeah, if you get a chance, read this book!!!!! it's awesome if you like that kind of philosophical stuff...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the difference between parallels and symbolism.
To me some of these similaries to the Bible that people are talking about seem slightly contrived. Yes there's no other way for the ring to be destroyed but if there had been there wouldn't have been a story or at least the same story. If there had been another easier way that would have been done instead.

[TwilightMaiden]

We are allowed to talk about Religion now? I just saw someone get reprimaded for it.

Tolkien was Christian (and I am as well, for that matter) and there is a religious theme to his books; the mercy Frodo shows for Gollum, the Elves and the Havens, how Sauron tries to play God and ultimately fails are just a few.

There are many other religions that show mercy and how evil fails, not just Christianity. I was informed by the rules that religion was not to be discussed. I am not Christian, I am Jewish...and we have mercy too.

[Elanor]

It depends on the topic whether you can talk about religion or not. Here is what the rules say:

5. No religion discussion... but only if someone is trying to convert everyone else to their religion or is picking a fight with another religion. If someone's just relating their religion to something on-topic or talking directly to people of their religion, then its alright.

The UFO topic (which I presume you're talking about) was turning into a discussion about whether God exists or not which is not allowed as these kind of things always seem to turn into fights. However this topic is relating religion to LotR which is OK though will also be stopped if it turns into a fight. If you're not sure if a topic's suitable or not you can PM a mod before starting it

I'd also agree with your point that things like mercy are not only confined to Christianity, that was the point I was making earlier.

[vikingmaiden]

Elanor said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the difference between parallels and symbolism.
To me some of these similaries to the Bible that people are talking about seem slightly contrived. Yes there's no other way for the ring to be destroyed but if there had been there wouldn't have been a story or at least the same story. If there had been another easier way that would have been done instead.

i'm sorry, i should have clarified what i meant! symbolism is basically when a figure in literature stands for something else. basically, like an allegory. the lamb in the bible is the symbol for sacrifice for example. parallels are things when a figure/character is similar to another thing outside the story. when i said aragorn is parallel to christ, i'm not meaning that aragorn is a symbol for christ, because there are a lot of differences between the lives of christ and aragorn, however the topic of returning as a king is a parallel between the two people.

i know that there are other religions that have similar values to christianity, but there are distinct differences between christianity and other religions. that's why i believe tolkien's christianity is very essential to why he wrote lotr, the hobbit and all his other books.

however, i'm not saying that someone who is not a christian cannot find meaning in lotr. that's not the point at all. of course people of all faiths can find meaning in a work by a christian author, but that does not shut out the author's christianity, or the christian essence of the work.

a point was made about how all this analysis takes away from the magic. it can if that is all you concentrate on. i like to analyze literature and find out "what it means", but in doing that, my awe for the book is enhanced. when i'm reading lotr for pleasure, i enjoy it sheerly for the magic and otherworldliness, and when i read it to analyze it, then my mindset is more critical. i like this discussion...it's making me think!!

[Arien Elensar]

Her name's Saranjeet and no I'm not a Sikh I'm a Christian

Cool! Is she into LOTR?

And you are exactly right; christianity isn't the only religion that shows mercy and stuff.

[Jenny]

vikingmaiden said:

i'm sorry, i should have clarified what i meant! symbolism is basically when a figure in literature stands for something else. basically, like an allegory. the lamb in the bible is the symbol for sacrifice for example. parallels are things when a figure/character is similar to another thing outside the story. when i said aragorn is parallel to christ, i'm not meaning that aragorn is a symbol for christ, because there are a lot of differences between the lives of christ and aragorn, however the topic of returning as a king is a parallel between the two people.

i know that there are other religions that have similar values to christianity, but there are distinct differences between christianity and other religions. that's why i believe tolkien's christianity is very essential to why he wrote lotr, the hobbit and all his other books.

however, i'm not saying that someone who is not a christian cannot find meaning in lotr. that's not the point at all. of course people of all faiths can find meaning in a work by a christian author, but that does not shut out the author's christianity, or the christian essence of the work.

a point was made about how all this analysis takes away from the magic. it can if that is all you concentrate on. i like to analyze literature and find out "what it means", but in doing that, my awe for the book is enhanced. when i'm reading lotr for pleasure, i enjoy it sheerly for the magic and otherworldliness, and when i read it to analyze it, then my mindset is more critical. i like this discussion...it's making me think!!

I couldn't have said it better. I really like this discussion too, thanks everyone for being mature about this and not fighting.

[Arien Elensar]

Very well said! And isn't Tolkien catholic?

[Jenny]

yes, Tolkien was Catholic.

[Arien Elensar]

Some people in this thread keep saying he is christian.

[Elanor]

Catholics are Christians There's lots of different groups in Christianity but they all believe in roughly the same ideas.

Arien said:

Cool! Is she into LOTR?

Not really.. I mean she quite liked the films but I don't think I could persuade her to join here. So do you never cut your hair? Cause Saranjeet never has.

i'm sorry, i should have clarified what i meant! symbolism is basically when a figure in literature stands for something else. basically, like an allegory. the lamb in the bible is the symbol for sacrifice for example. parallels are things when a figure/character is similar to another thing outside the story. when i said aragorn is parallel to christ, i'm not meaning that aragorn is a symbol for christ, because there are a lot of differences between the lives of christ and aragorn, however the topic of returning as a king is a parallel between the two people.

i know that there are other religions that have similar values to christianity, but there are distinct differences between christianity and other religions. that's why i believe tolkien's christianity is very essential to why he wrote lotr, the hobbit and all his other books.

OK thanks for explaining the difference. You might be right about Aragorn but it could also relate back to King Arther or other myths like that which LotR is based on. Thoguh I suppose that 's based on the Bible too. hmm... it is an interesting topic.

What destinct differences are you talking about that are in LotR? I know there are differences between religions but I'm just interested to know what ones you're talking about.

[Arien Elensar]

Wops! Well I'm niether so I guess you can see why I didn't know that.

And I have also never cut my hair. I have Amrit.

[Lady Orohisiel Rainyaviel]

Just because something has virtues in it like mercy, hope, love and all the the things that christians have doesn't make it christian. It doesn't make it religious in any sense of the word. Did Tolkien intend Arda to be as religious as this one? I don't know. But the things he, and anyone, incorporates into their stroies is just something we live with, it doesn't just come from religion. I live by so called 'christian values' but that doesn't make me christian. I am in fact pagan. *is blathering on*

[Alessae]

Theres that whole thing about subconscious, aswell.

Everything that TOlkien ever read, (the Bible also, if he was Catholic) played a part in Lord of the Rings, but some time, it may not just be as obsious as other times.

I'm Catholic also, but I do cut my hair.

Elensar, yours must be very long!

[Jenny]

That's a good point about subconciousness, because I think it is true. I know that if I were to write a book, I would most likely put in themes that were based on the Bible, either subconciously or conciously, simply because the Bible is a huge part of my life and how I live, and I think it was the same way with Tolkien. My sister is taking a class on children's literature (she is getting her degreen in elementary education) and she is doing a big research paper on CS Lewis (author of The Chronicles of Narnia, which many reguard as very Biblical books-- much more than LotR) and she told me that in her research, she read that CS Lewis didnt set out to write books that contained lots of Biblical symboligy, but they just turned out that way because he was a Christian, and the Bible was a big part of his life. I'm guessing that it was probably the same case with Tolkien.